Kfir vs. F-5, F-16, M2000
- Tema iniciado Finback
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Pero... Tan malo lo ves??. Ya que tocaste la aerodinamia no hay muchas diferencias.
La electronica de elbit es buena. No tengo mucha referencia de los python ni derbys pero no parece mala opcion para lo poco que nos dejan comprar.
El radar es bueno.
El cambio mas grande es el aerodinámico, justamente...
‘Air Combat-related Avionics and Weapons’
Here I am comparing the capability of both aircrafts in terms of Within Visual Range (WVR) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air combat thru their Avionics and Weapons available to them. Just some notes, though:
– RCS data are for “clean” aircraft, with no armaments or fuel tanks
– No solid references for the Radar Cross Section (RCS) and detection ranges for the Kfir B60 and its EL/M-2052 radar. RCS is taken from an obscure internet reference, while the EL/M-2052 detection range is just estimated to be 25% higher than the detection range of the EL/M-2032 radar.
– Other data were taken from this website:[9][10]
* SUMMARY
– WVR COMBAT: Advantage for the Netz because of its Fly By Wire (FBW) system ??????????????????????
– BVR COMBAT: Practically even for both aircrafts as the Netz is expected to be able to detect the Kfir at 59 km, or just 3% (2 km) further than the Kfir can detect the Netz which is at 57 km.
+++ The Netz’s FBW system means its control reactions are faster which will be more pronounced during successive maneuvers, and it also makes the plane safer as it will be more resistant to stalls and over stressing of the airframe. This will enable the Netz to fly closer to its maximum flight envelopes without exceeding them, while the same thing can’t be said of the Kfir with its mechanical flight control system.
+++ The Netz has a more powerful radar than the Kfir, but it also has a higher Radar Cross Section, enabling the Kfir to detect at just about the same time. Of course the Kfir’s RCS and radar detection range data are just speculative, and I suspect that the Kfir’s EL/M-2052 AESA radar has much better actual performance that stated above, but unless better data becomes available then we will just have to live with these numbers for now.
+++ The Kfir is limited only to the use of the Derby as BVR missile instead of the much longer-ranged AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Netz’s use of the Derby is only assumed, while its capability to use the AMRAAM is highly suspect as there are no references saying to that effect. This will impact the Netz negatively when matching up against more capable aircraft than the Kfir.
Fuente: https://rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/the-f-16a-netz-versus-the-kfir-block-60/
Here I am comparing the capability of both aircrafts in terms of Within Visual Range (WVR) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air combat thru their Avionics and Weapons available to them. Just some notes, though:
– RCS data are for “clean” aircraft, with no armaments or fuel tanks
– No solid references for the Radar Cross Section (RCS) and detection ranges for the Kfir B60 and its EL/M-2052 radar. RCS is taken from an obscure internet reference, while the EL/M-2052 detection range is just estimated to be 25% higher than the detection range of the EL/M-2032 radar.
– Other data were taken from this website:[9][10]
* SUMMARY
– WVR COMBAT: Advantage for the Netz because of its Fly By Wire (FBW) system ??????????????????????
– BVR COMBAT: Practically even for both aircrafts as the Netz is expected to be able to detect the Kfir at 59 km, or just 3% (2 km) further than the Kfir can detect the Netz which is at 57 km.
+++ The Netz’s FBW system means its control reactions are faster which will be more pronounced during successive maneuvers, and it also makes the plane safer as it will be more resistant to stalls and over stressing of the airframe. This will enable the Netz to fly closer to its maximum flight envelopes without exceeding them, while the same thing can’t be said of the Kfir with its mechanical flight control system.
+++ The Netz has a more powerful radar than the Kfir, but it also has a higher Radar Cross Section, enabling the Kfir to detect at just about the same time. Of course the Kfir’s RCS and radar detection range data are just speculative, and I suspect that the Kfir’s EL/M-2052 AESA radar has much better actual performance that stated above, but unless better data becomes available then we will just have to live with these numbers for now.
+++ The Kfir is limited only to the use of the Derby as BVR missile instead of the much longer-ranged AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Netz’s use of the Derby is only assumed, while its capability to use the AMRAAM is highly suspect as there are no references saying to that effect. This will impact the Netz negatively when matching up against more capable aircraft than the Kfir.
Fuente: https://rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/the-f-16a-netz-versus-the-kfir-block-60/
Derruido
Colaborador
Vamos al punto central.‘Air Combat-related Avionics and Weapons’
Here I am comparing the capability of both aircrafts in terms of Within Visual Range (WVR) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air combat thru their Avionics and Weapons available to them. Just some notes, though:
– RCS data are for “clean” aircraft, with no armaments or fuel tanks
– No solid references for the Radar Cross Section (RCS) and detection ranges for the Kfir B60 and its EL/M-2052 radar. RCS is taken from an obscure internet reference, while the EL/M-2052 detection range is just estimated to be 25% higher than the detection range of the EL/M-2032 radar.
– Other data were taken from this website:[9][10]
* SUMMARY
– WVR COMBAT: Advantage for the Netz because of its Fly By Wire (FBW) system ??????????????????????
– BVR COMBAT: Practically even for both aircrafts as the Netz is expected to be able to detect the Kfir at 59 km, or just 3% (2 km) further than the Kfir can detect the Netz which is at 57 km.
+++ The Netz’s FBW system means its control reactions are faster which will be more pronounced during successive maneuvers, and it also makes the plane safer as it will be more resistant to stalls and over stressing of the airframe. This will enable the Netz to fly closer to its maximum flight envelopes without exceeding them, while the same thing can’t be said of the Kfir with its mechanical flight control system.
+++ The Netz has a more powerful radar than the Kfir, but it also has a higher Radar Cross Section, enabling the Kfir to detect at just about the same time. Of course the Kfir’s RCS and radar detection range data are just speculative, and I suspect that the Kfir’s EL/M-2052 AESA radar has much better actual performance that stated above, but unless better data becomes available then we will just have to live with these numbers for now.
+++ The Kfir is limited only to the use of the Derby as BVR missile instead of the much longer-ranged AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Netz’s use of the Derby is only assumed, while its capability to use the AMRAAM is highly suspect as there are no references saying to that effect. This will impact the Netz negatively when matching up against more capable aircraft than the Kfir.
Fuente: https://rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/the-f-16a-netz-versus-the-kfir-block-60/
Algún piloto de la FAA lo voló?. Que le pareció?
Besos
Derruido
Colaborador
Derruido
Colaborador
Lástima el Nazo.......
Rojo, el punto central del Kfir, es que no tiene controles de vuelo modernos. Y por otro lado no es una célula para soportar grandes G, en un combate cara a cara. Con la electrónica, tal vez puede pelear a gran distancia con cierta igualdad. Pero cuantos combates se han terminado definiendo en la corta distancia?.
Besos
PD: Más si tú vecino ya piensa ir por F35 o EFAS, el otro por Gripen y tú enemigo declarado ya tiene Volando EFAS y próximamente F35.
PD: Stop Gap, si venían cuando los Deltas se estaban retirando. Ahora bien, traer el primero dentro de 2 años. Con ese plazo de tiempo, creo que se puede traer cualquier otra cosa y que no sea un parche. Porque si vienen recorridos a 0horas, ni remotamente creo que vayan a estar solamente 10 años. Ni remotamente.
Nadie lo.discute eso y todos seguramente querrian otra cosa, ahora el punto es tenemos la nada misma si.llega algo va a ser en un numero reducido yo me preocuparia si confirman la compra de 72 kfir que no se si los hay ahi si me pego un tiro en los h.... pero en.la cantidad que se maneja si o si hay que ir por otra cosa.
Pero..... Mas me preocuparia por que dientes van a traer..
De nada sirve por ejemplo el A4-Ar sin AIML9.
De nada sirve por ejemplo el A4-Ar sin AIML9.
Derruido
Colaborador
Es que partís de una sdram limitado, el cual no te va a permitir escalar para tener más pilotos, técnicos y la mar en coche.
La gran desventaja, que por más que te afirmen que no vas a tener problemas con los repuestos........ ser el único cliente de un único proveedor.
Besos
PD: El problema no es que sea único proveedor, sinó que seamos los únicos usuarios.............
Por lo primero va a serlo mismo con cualquier cosa que llegue.
Por lo segundo por contrato te aseguran 10 años .
El Kfir puede enfrentar al F-5E (y al AMX) con buenas posibilidades.
La ventaja del F-5 es su reducido tamaño y en ACM se maneja bien en la horizontal mientras el Kfir es mejor en la vertical.
En términos generales es tan ágil como un F-4E/MIG-23M, es decir, maniobras de hasta 7/7,5Gs.
En la historia de la aviación militar sólo 4 veces un 3Gen derrotó a un 4Ge
puede pasar que un Kfir derrote a un F-16/M2K pero en la general será derrotado.
Era un buen reemplazo de los A-4B/C en 1983...
Saludos
La ventaja del F-5 es su reducido tamaño y en ACM se maneja bien en la horizontal mientras el Kfir es mejor en la vertical.
En términos generales es tan ágil como un F-4E/MIG-23M, es decir, maniobras de hasta 7/7,5Gs.
En la historia de la aviación militar sólo 4 veces un 3Gen derrotó a un 4Ge
puede pasar que un Kfir derrote a un F-16/M2K pero en la general será derrotado.
Era un buen reemplazo de los A-4B/C en 1983...
Saludos
Azul140
Colaborador
Por eso lo aclaré derru...
El Block 60 es un C10 relanzado al mercado con AESA, tenés razón en lo que decís, pero si le saco el radar no hay casi diferencia con un C10 (es más sin el 2052 te digo que debería ser anunciado como una simple actualización de ciertos sistemas para los C10).
Si hay algo con lo que los israelíes son jodidamete grosos es con el marketing.
Claro es el nombre marketinero la estructura es la misma claro esta.
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